ΣΩΚΡΑΤΗΣ ΦΑΟΔΟΣ

PHAEDRUS: Listen. You know how matters stand with me; and how, as I conceive, this affair may be arranged for the advantage of both of us. And I maintain that I ought not to fail in my suit, because I am not your lover: for lovers repent of the kindnesses which they have shown when their passion ceases, but to the non-lovers who are free and not under any compulsion, no time of repentance ever comes; for they confer their benefits according to the measure of their ability, in the way which is most conducive to their own interest. Then again, lovers consider how by reason of their love they have neglected their own concerns and rendered service to others: and when to these benefits conferred they add on the troubles which they have endured, they think that they have long ago made to the beloved a very ample return. But the non-lover has no such tormenting recollections; he has never neglected his affairs or quarrelled with his relations; he has no troubles to add up or excuses to invent; and being well rid of all these evils, why should he not freely do what will gratify the beloved? If you say that the lover is more to be esteemed, because his love is thought to be greater; for he is willing to say and do what is hateful to other men, in order to please his beloved;—that, if true, is only a proof that he will prefer any future love to his present, and will injure his old love at the pleasure of the new. And how, in a matter of such infinite importance, can a man be right in trusting himself to one who is afflicted with a malady which no experienced person would attempt to cure, for the patient himself admits that he is not in his right mind, and acknowledges that he is wrong in his mind, but says that he is unable to control himself? And if he came to his right mind, would he ever imagine that the desires were good which he conceived when in his wrong mind? Once more, there are many more non-lovers than lovers; and if you choose the best of the lovers, you will not have many to choose from; but if from the non-lovers, the choice will be larger, and you will be far more likely to find among them a person who is worthy of your friendship. If public opinion be your dread, and you would avoid reproach, in all probability the lover, who is always thinking that other men are as emulous of him as he is of them, will boast to some one of his successes, and make a show of them openly in the pride of his heart;—he wants others to know that his labour has not been lost; but the non-lover is more his own master, and is desirous of solid good, and not of the opinion of mankind. Again, the lover may be generally noted or seen following the beloved (this is his regular occupation), and whenever they are observed to exchange two words they are supposed to meet about some affair of love either past or in contemplation; but when non-lovers meet, no one asks the reason why, because people know that talking to another is natural, whether friendship or mere pleasure be the motive. Once more, if you fear the fickleness of friendship, consider that in any other case a quarrel might be a mutual calamity; but now, when you have given up what is most precious to you, you will be the greater loser, and therefore, you will have more reason in being afraid of the lover, for his vexations are many, and he is always fancying that every one is leagued against him. Wherefore also he debars his beloved from society; he will not have you intimate with the wealthy, lest they should exceed him in wealth, or with men of education, lest they should be his superiors in understanding; and he is equally afraid of anybody's influence who has any other advantage over himself. If he can persuade you to break with them, you are left without a friend in the world; or if, out of a regard to your own interest, you have more sense than to comply with his desire, you will have to quarrel with him. But those who are non-lovers, and whose success in love is the reward of their merit, will not be jealous of the companions of their beloved, and will rather hate those who refuse to be his associates, thinking that their favourite is slighted by the latter and benefited by the former; for more love than hatred may be expected to come to him out of his friendship with others. Many lovers too have loved the person of a youth before they knew his character or his belongings; so that when their passion has passed away, there is no knowing whether they will continue to be his friends; whereas, in the case of non-lovers who were always friends, the friendship is not lessened by the favours granted; but the recollection of these remains with them, and is an earnest of good things to come.

Further, I say that you are likely to be improved by me, whereas the lover will spoil you. For they praise your words and actions in a wrong way; partly, because they are afraid of offending you, and also, their judgment is weakened by passion. Such are the feats which love exhibits; he makes things painful to the disappointed which give no pain to others; he compels the successful lover to praise what ought not to give him pleasure, and therefore the beloved is to be pitied rather than envied. But if you listen to me, in the first place, I, in my intercourse with you, shall not merely regard present enjoyment, but also future advantage, being not mastered by love, but my own master; nor for small causes taking violent dislikes, but even when the cause is great, slowly laying up little wrath—unintentional offences I shall forgive, and intentional ones I shall try to prevent; and these are the marks of a friendship which will last.

Do you think that a lover only can be a firm friend? reflect:—if this were true, we should set small value on sons, or fathers, or mothers; nor should we ever have loyal friends, for our love of them arises not from passion, but from other associations. Further, if we ought to shower favours on those who are the most eager suitors,—on that principle, we ought always to do good, not to the most virtuous, but to the most needy; for they are the persons who will be most relieved, and will therefore be the most grateful; and when you make a feast you should invite not your friend, but the beggar and the empty soul; for they will love you, and attend you, and come about your doors, and will be the best pleased, and the most grateful, and will invoke many a blessing on your head. Yet surely you ought not to be granting favours to those who besiege you with prayer, but to those who are best able to reward you; nor to the lover only, but to those who are worthy of love; nor to those who will enjoy the bloom of your youth, but to those who will share their possessions with you in age; nor to those who, having succeeded, will glory in their success to others, but to those who will be modest and tell no tales; nor to those who care about you for a moment only, but to those who will continue your friends through life; nor to those who, when their passion is over, will pick a quarrel with you, but rather to those who, when the charm of youth has left you, will show their own virtue. Remember what I have said; and consider yet this further point: friends admonish the lover under the idea that his way of life is bad, but no one of his kindred ever yet censured the non-lover, or thought that he was ill-advised about his own interests.

'Perhaps you will ask me whether I propose that you should indulge every non-lover. To which I reply that not even the lover would advise you to indulge all lovers, for the indiscriminate favour is less esteemed by the rational recipient, and less easily hidden by him who would escape the censure of the world. Now love ought to be for the advantage of both parties, and for the injury of neither.

'I believe that I have said enough; but if there is anything more which you desire or which in your opinion needs to be supplied, ask and I will answer.'

Now, Socrates, what do you think? Is not the discourse excellent, more especially in the matter of the language?

SOCRATES: Yes, quite admirable; the effect on me was ravishing. And this I owe to you, Phaedrus, for I observed you while reading to be in an ecstasy, and thinking that you are more experienced in these matters than I am, I followed your example, and, like you, my divine darling, I became inspired with a phrenzy.

PHAEDRUS: Indeed, you are pleased to be merry.

SOCRATES: Do you mean that I am not in earnest?

PHAEDRUS: Now don't talk in that way, Socrates, but let me have your real opinion; I adjure you, by Zeus, the god of friendship, to tell me whether you think that any Hellene could have said more or spoken better on the same subject.

SOCRATES: Well, but are you and I expected to praise the sentiments of the author, or only the clearness, and roundness, and finish, and tournure of the language? As to the first I willingly submit to your better judgment, for I am not worthy to form an opinion, having only attended to the rhetorical manner; and I was doubting whether this could have been defended even by Lysias himself; I thought, though I speak under correction, that he repeated himself two or three times, either from want of words or from want of pains; and also, he appeared to me ostentatiously to exult in showing how well he could say the same thing in two or three ways.

231 Phaedrus or the phases of us when the us is anthropomorphized as 

......Thus or us in any way other than the one way us means us without 

        Them being part of any us other than the one us that is us or one of us...

Phaedrus

Hear then. {the first part of any conversation: without which the rest fails to exist}

 You know what my condition is, and you have heard how I think it is to our advantage to arrange these matters.

[231a] And I claim that I ought not to be refused what I ask because I am not your lover.

 For lovers repent

 of the kindnesses they have done

 when their passion ceases;

 but there is no time 

when non-lovers naturally repent.

 For they do kindnesses to the best of their ability,

 not under compulsion, 

but of their free will,

 according to their

 view of their own best interest.

 And on the other side of the came coin

 lovers consider the injury they have done

 to their own concerns

 on account of their love,

 and the benefits

 they have conferred,

 And

 they

 add the trouble 

They

 have had,

[231b]

 and so they think

 they have long ago

 made sufficient return

 to the beloved;

 but non-lovers

 cannot ever

 neglect of their

 own affairs

 because of their condition,

 nor can they take account

 of the pains

 they have been at

 in the past, nor lay any blame

 for quarrels with their relatives;

 and so, since all these evils are removed,

 there is nothing left for them but to do eagerly what they think will please the beloved.

[231c] And besides,{aka:... on the other side of the same coin...}

if lovers ought to be highly esteemed

 because they say they have the greatest love

 for the objects of their passion,

 since both by word and deed

 they are ready to make themselves 

hated by others to please the beloved,

 it is easy to see that, if what they say is true, 

whenever they fall in love afterwards,

 they will care for the new love more than for the old 

and will certainly injure the old love, if that pleases the new.

 And how can one reasonably entrust matters of such importance

 to one who is afflicted with a disease

[231d] such that 

no one of any experience would even try to cure it?

 For they themselves confess that they are

 insane, rather than in their right mind,

 and that they know they are foolish, 

but cannot control themselves; 

and so, how could they,

 when they have come to their senses,

 think those acts were good which they

 determined upon 

when in such a condition? 

And if you were to choose the best from among your lovers,

 your choice would be limited to a few; 

whereas it would be made from a great number,

 if you chose the most congenial from non-lovers,

[231e] so that you would have a better chance, 

in choosing among many,

 of finding the one most worthy of your affection.

 Now if you are afraid of public opinion, 

and fear that if people find out your love affair you will be disgraced,

[232a] consider that lovers,

 believing that others would be as envious of them

 as they are of others, 

are likely to be excited by possession 

and in their pride to show everybody

 that they have not toiled in vain; 

but the non-lovers, since they have control of their feelings, 

are likely to choose what is really best,

 rather than to court the opinion of mankind. 

Moreover, many are sure to notice 

and see the lovers going about

 with their beloved ones and making that

[232b] their chief business, and so,

 when they are seen talking with each other, 

people think they are met in connection with some love-matter

 either past or future;

 but no one ever thinks of finding fault with non-lovers

 because they meet,

 since everyone knows that one must converse with somebody,

 either because of friendship or because it is pleasant for some other reason. 

And then, too, if you are frightened by the thought that it is hard for friendship to last, and that under other circumstances any quarrel would be an equal misfortune to both, but that when you have surrendered 

[232c] what you prize most highly you would be the chief sufferer,

 it would be reasonable for you to be more afraid of the lovers;

 for they are pained by many things and they think everything that happens

 is done for the sake of hurting them.

 Therefore they prevent their loves from associating with other men,

 for they fear the wealthy, lest their money give them an advantage,

 and the educated, lest they prove superior in intellect; 

and they are on their guard

[232d] against the influence of everyone who possesses

 any other good thing. 

If now they persuade you to incur the dislike of all these, 

‘

they involve you in a dearth of friends,

 and if you consider your own interest 

and are more sensible than they, 

you will have to quarrel with them.

 But those who are not in love,

 but who have gained the satisfaction of their desires

 because of their merit,

 would not be jealous

 of those who associated with you,

 but would hate those who did not wish to do so,

 thinking 

that you are slighted by these last

 and benefited by the former,